MODERATOR: Yes, I appreciate that as a viewpoint, but I don't think that the fact that a thing has always existed obviates the fact that in this particular instance it does create vital problems for the individuals involved and also because of centuries of discussion and hostilities it creates a problem for the society. So, that I think today what we are trying to establish is what that problem is and how it can be most constructively handled from every standpoint. You mentioned, Mrs. Gailey, that you had become a member of this Society because your son was a member.

MRS. GAILEY: That's true.

MODERATOR: Perhaps you could tell us something about the problem regarding this manifestation of expression, from the standpoint of a parent. MRS. GAILEY: I think my first reaction would be a universal one,-it was shock. Here was ostracism facing me, ostracism for me and for my son, and it was a shock. Well, basically I loved my son,-I wasn't about to put him out of the family circle just because he happened to have a different sexual attitude. So, I decided I would try to understand it. You know, the big part of fear is the unknown. As soon as you start to understand, some of the fear leaves. Isn't that so, Dr. Baker?

DR. BAKER: Oh, I so appreciate what you've said.

MRS. GAILEY: And the problem is a very challenging one. The more I got the more I studied, the more I read. And incidentally there is much literature on the layman level for anyone to read, if they will and if they are interested, -much of it. Many people are frightened because they think they have to go to the medical journals which they won't understand. But there is very much on the layman level which they can read to understand. As far as I am concerned, it is just a matter of understanding, and accepting. MODERATOR: And what did your understanding come to? I think that would be an interesting point. Did you discover that you really didn't have a feeling of shock and hostility any more, or simply that it was something that because you loved another human being you were willing to accept? MRS. GAILEY: Very much so. That is just about it.

MR. CALL: Well, I would like to throw in right here, this idea, that the problem of.homosexuality, or the existence of homosexual people, is very often much closer to all of us than most of us realize. The person on the job next to you, the neighbor in the apartment, or the house next door, may very often be homosexual. As far as we have been able to learn from the statistics the experts have handed out, approximately every tenth adult in our culture today be predominantly homosexual. So, it isn't one of those scourges that is may visited on someone here and there,—it is quite general in our culture and it spreads throughout our entire population with no respect to economic or intellectual standing. It covers the entire strata of our society.

mattachine REVIEW

DR. BAKER: Hal, don't you think that the claims that are made that homosexuality is on the increase is more or less an optical illusion?

MR. CALL: Yes, actually it is this: we've brought about a greater awareness of the existence of homosexuality in this country and in the world, particularly in the United States since the end of World War II. The pressures of the war time period, plus the movements of large groups of the population, plus, possibly, throwing many family relationships out of the so-called ordinary balance and putting great groups of men together, here and there, created an awareness, or increased the discovery of the existence of homosexuality in, probably, a good many people who would never otherwise have discovered it.

MODERATOR: There is one thing I would like to put on the table for discussion: do you feel that the attitude of the person involved is conditioned by society's pressure, or is it intrinsic to his own situation. I mean, does he find himself, or does she find herself, in a situation where they themselves have a certain amount of hostility and resentment and fear regarding their own attitudes? Is that purely produced by the society, or is there a real problem involved for the individual in facing their own inclinations? MR CALL: I think the individual, the homosexual individual, adopts a lot of his attitudes and his own hostilities as a result of the mores or the attitudes of the society in which he lives. And maybe he even adopts certain mannerisms as a result which reflect this hostility and this lack of self-acceptance. Because he feels that no one else accepts him, he is reluctant, perhaps, to understand and accept his own true nature. And certainly, if it is a homosexual orientation, it is something which he cannot advertise. If anything, he has to live a double life, and hide it. That is, he has to be homosexual privately if at all, and otherwise appear like a normal or average person in all of his other contacts.

MRS. GAILEY: Wouldn't you say that there was some of both,-in both the individual and the attitude of society? Certainly there is a great fear, that is the most widespread reaction of all homosexuals, fear of society. But I think there is also guilt and shame within himself. He has both to face. Wouldn't you say that was true, Dr. Baker?

DR. BAKER: Oh, I certainly agree with you. The major factor is this fear of the unknown which you have mentioned, and people have such concepts of homosexuality that make them have all kinds of grizzly fear. I would like to say also that one of the factors which I think is so important to realize is the fear that it may be in us. We have little indications, maybe we have been a little too exuberant in expressions that we were surprised at, and so we will often persecute a person because we don't want to face the truth in ourselves.